WELCOME, EVERYBODY. I'M REALLY HAPPY TO HAVE THIS OPPORTUNITY TO PARTNER WITH THE AMERICAN ACADEMY OF DIPLOMACY, WITH LIVE REPORTING OF AMERICAN DIPLOMAT ON THE THEME OF "US/BRAZIL BROMANCE: WHAT'S IN STORE FOR US?". WE ARE JOINED BY LAURA BENNETT WHO IS A PRODUCER AND HOST OF AMERICAN DIPLOMAT AND ON THE FAR END AMBASSADOR THOMAS SHANNON AND AMBASSADOR PETER ROMERO WHO IS A 25 YEAR VETERAN OF THE FOREIGN SERVICE WHO SERVED MOST RECENTLY AS ASSISTANT SECRETARY OF THE WESTERN HEMISPHERE. BEFORE THAT AS DEPUTY ASSISTANT SECRETARY AND AS AMBASSADOR TO ECUADOR. HE WAS CHARGE D'AFFAIRES IN EL SALVADOR AND ONE OF THE ARCHITECTS AND INSTIGATORS OF PLANNED COLOMBIA. I WILL TURN IT OVER TO AMBASSADOR ROMERO WHO WILL TAKE IT OVER FROM THERE. Ambassador Romero: WELCOME TO AMERICAN DIPLOMAT, REAL STORIES BEHIND THE NEWS. I AM ROMERO AND WITH ME IS -- LAURA BENNETT. Ambassador Romero: I WANT TO REMIND PEOPLE WE HAVE ONE OF THESE STILL PHOTOS ON OUR WEBSITE WHICH FEATURES -- SORRY. WHICH FEATURES OUR THREE GOLDENDOODLE DOGS AT THE MICROPHONE AND IT WASN'T JUST WHIMSY. THE REASON WE WERE TOGETHER, LAURA AND I MET WALKING OUR DOGS IN EASTON MART -- MARYLAND AND THE THIRD DOODLE, SANTOS, IS THE PET OF THE OWNER OF OUR STUDIOS IN WASHINGTON SO PLEASE CHECK THAT OUT IF YOU HAVEN'T ALREADY. Laura: THEY ARE CUTE. Ambassador Romero: THEY ARE DOGS. WE HAVE A SPECIAL TREAT TODAY FOR OUR LISTENERS, WE ARE PLEASED TO BE COMING TO YOU FROM THE GERALD FORD SCHOOL OF PUBLIC DIPLOMACY AT THE UNIVERSITY OF MICHIGAN. OUR VISIT IS SPONSORED BY THE WISER DIPLOMATIC CENTER AND IT IS PART OF A SERIES WE HAVE ONGOING IN OUR PODCAST CALLED IS IT HAPPENING HERE? WE HAVE 80 PODCASTS, WE'VE BEEN IN BUSINESS FOR 15 MONTHS AND I THINK YOU WILL FIND SOME VERY INTERESTING THINGS AS IT RELATES TO FIRST-PERSON STORIES OF OUR DIPLOMATS IN PRACTICE OVERSEAS. IS IT HAPPENING HERE IS A SERIES WE RUN FROM TIME TO TIME. WE LOOKED AT VLADIMIR PUTIN'S RUSSIA, ERDOGAN'S TURKEY, CHAVEZ'S VENEZUELA AND WE WANT TO LOOK AT JAIR BOLSONARO'S BRAZIL AND WHAT IT MEANS FOR US. I'M PLEASED TO WELCOME THE MOST INFORMED DIPLOMATS WE COULD BRING TO THIS DISCUSSION. TO MY LEFT IS TOM SHANNON, HEAD OF 33 OR 34? 341/2, 34.5 YEAR CAREER IN FOREIGN SERVICE. HE WAS THE ASSISTANT SECRETARY FOR THE WESTERN HEMISPHERE AFFAIRS AND AMBASSADOR FOR BRAZIL FROM 2010-2013 AND WE WILL PICK HIS BRAIN ABOUT THAT. GO AND ALSO THE NUMBER 3 PERSON IN THE STATE DEPARTMENT, UNDERSECRETARY FOR POLITICAL AFFAIRS, TO INCLUDE THE COUNCIL OF THE DEPARTMENT FOR A WILD. WE ARE PLEASED TO HAVE WITH US AMBASSADOR MELVIN, PROFESSOR OF THE GERALD FORD SCHOOL OF PUBLIC POLICY. HE TAUGHT FOR EIGHT YEARS AS PROFESSOR OF PUBLIC ADMINISTRATION IN INTERNATIONAL AFFAIRS AT SYRACUSE UNIVERSITY. HE WAS ELECTED BY A VOTE OF THE UNITED NATIONS ECONOMIC AND SOCIAL COUNCIL TO A SEAT ON THE INTERNATIONAL NARCOTICS CONTROL BOARD, AN INDEPENDENT BODY OF EXPERTS RESPONSIBLE FOR MONITORING AND PROMOTING STANDARDS OF DRUG CONTROL ESTABLISHED BY INTERNATIONAL TREATIES. DURING HIS 35 YEAR CAREER IN THE FOREIGN SERVICE AS A US DIPLOMAT HE WAS AMBASSADOR TO BRAZIL, ASSISTANT SECRETARY OF STATE FOR INTERNATIONAL NARCOTICS, EXECUTIVE SECRETARY OF THE STATE DEPARTMENT, AMBASSADOR TO BULGARIA, THE RECIPIENT OF SEVERAL MERITORIOUS AWARDS AND ESTABLISHED HONOR AWARDS. WELCOME. THANKS FOR COMING TO THE FORD SCHOOL. Laura: YOU KNOW SO MUCH. AMERICAN DIPLOMAT IS A PROJECT OF THE COX FOUNDATION IN PARTNERSHIP WITH THE AMERICAN ACADEMY OF DIPLOMACY. WE ARE TALKING. Ambassador Romero: WHAT I WOULD REALLY LIKE TO DO IS SCROLL BACK IN TIME. IT WASN'T BUT 5 OR 6 YEARS AGO THAT THE OLD ADAGE OF BRAZIL IS THE COUNTRY OF THE FUTURE AND ALWAYS WILL BE SEEMED TO BE OUTDATED, LOOKED LIKE IT WAS BRAZIL'S TIME. THEY WERE A LEADER IN THE REGION IF NOT INTERNATIONALLY, THEY HAD BECOME MEMBERS OF THE BRICK COUNTRIES, BRAZIL, RUSSIA, INDIA, CHINA AND, SOME PEOPLE, SOUTH AFRICA. A COUNTERWEIGHT TO US INFLUENCE. THAT WAS ESSENTIALLY, IT WAS SUPPOSED TO BE THE MERGING GREAT POWERS. WEISER DIPLOMACY CENTER DIPLOMATICALLY AS WELL AS ECONOMICALLY. Ambassador Romero: THE LARGEST OIL AND GAS RESERVES IN THE WORLD FOUND OFF THE COAST, INCREDIBLE PRODUCTION OF ETHANOL, EXPORT OF ETHANOL REGIONALLY. IT REALLY LOOKED -- GROWTH RATES WHICH WERE THROUGH THE CEILING. IT LOOKED LIKE BRAZIL'S TIME HAD FINALLY COME. TOM? WHAT DID YOU DO WRONG? Guest: I LEFT BEFORE IT ALL CAME UNDONE. LET ME START BY SAYING WHAT A PLEASURE IT IS TO BE HERE, ESPECIALLY TO BE WITH MISTER LIVE IN SKI WHO WAS AN ICON IN THE FOREIGN SERVICE WHO I ADMIRED GREATLY. MORE IMPORTANTLY WHEN I WAS AMBASSADOR TO BRAZIL IN THE ENTRYWAY TO THE AMBASSADOR'S OFFICE AS YOU WALK INTO THE LARGER SWEET, ALL OF THE FORMER AMBASSADOR'S PHOTOGRAPHS ARE HANGING ON THE WALL SO EVERY DAY I CAME TO WORK AND LEFT WORK, HE LOOKED AT ME AND ASKED ME WHAT HAVE YOU DONE FOR YOUR COUNTRY TODAY? SOMETIMES I HAD A GOOD ANSWER AND SOMETIMES I DIDN'T. Ambassador Romero: THIS WAS BEFORE MAKE AMERICA GREAT AGAIN. Guest: I KNEW SOMETHING WAS ABOUT TO HAPPEN IN BRAZIL. IN SUMMER OF 2013, WHEN AT THE CONFEDERATION CUP OPENER IN WHICH BRAZIL WAS PLAYING JAPAN, A LEAD UP TO THE WORLD CUP AND BRAZIL WAS THE HOST AND THE OLYMPICS, IT WAS GOING TO BE A SERIES OF GLOBAL SPORTING EVENTS THAT WOULD CEMENT BRAZIL'S STATURE GLOBALLY AS A SOFT POWER THAT HAD EMERGED AS A GLOBAL POWER, MAYBE ONE OF THE FIRST. AS THE TEAMS CAME ONTO THE FIELD AND OTHER THAN HEAD OF FEE FOR --FIFA PREPARED FOR SPEECH, SHE WAS THE PRESIDENT OF THE TIME, EVERYONE IN THE STADIUM STARTED WHISTLING. WHISTLING IN BRAZIL IS LIKE BLUEIING. BLUEIIOIOING. I REMEMBER THINKING SOMETHING IS HAPPENING, WITH A LARGELY MIDDLE-CLASS CROWD, LARGELY A CROWD FROM BRASÍLIA, GOVERNMENT SAID, RESPONDING IN THIS FASHION. IT WAS STRIKING. VERY SOON AFTER THAT, EVEN BEFORE THAT HAD STARTED, THE POLITICAL REPERCUSSIONS OF DEMONSTRATIONS HAD TAKEN PLACE THROUGH MUCH OF THE SUMMER OF 2013. DID THEY START WITH THE PROTEST ON THE AMOUNT OF MONEY THE BRAZILIAN GOVERNMENT WAS SPENDING ON OLYMPIC FACILITIES AND WORLD CUP FACILITIES? IT STARTS WITH A HIKE IN BUS FARE. A FAIRLY SMALL HIKE. BUT IT HAD A HUGE IMPACT ON THE CITIZENS WHO TRAVELED BY BUS. THEY STARTED DEMONSTRATING BUT IT CAUGHT FIRE AND ROLLED ACROSS THE COUNTRY. SOME OF IT WAS LINKED TO SPENDING ON STADIUMS BUT IT WAS MOSTLY FOCUSED ON CONCERN ABOUT HIGH TAX RATES AND LOW SERVICE PROVISIONS. THIS IS WHAT GENERATES IT, WHAT BEGINS IT. THIS IS COMBINED WITH A POLITICAL CRISIS WHICH LEADS TO IMPEACHMENT AND EFFECTIVELY THE COLLAPSE OF BRAZIL'S POLITICAL CLASS AND OPENS THE SPACE WE SAW WITH THE ELECTION OF JAIR BOLSONARO. DID YOU FORESEE THIS HAPPENING IN BRAZIL? THERE'S A CERTAIN NOSTALGIA IN BRAZIL EVEN MORE SO TODAY, THE MILITARY JUNTA RAN THE COUNTRY, DID YOU FEEL ANY OF THAT, THEY FELT THE GOVERNMENT HAD GONE TOO FAR. GO WAY BACK, AND WHAT WAS ON THE MOUTH OF THE AMAZON RIVER FOR A COUPLE YEARS AND TRANSFERRED TO BRASÍLIA AS WE WERE MOVING THE EMBASSY SO I HAD THAT EXPERIENCE AND DID WHAT I MOSTLY WANTED TO DO WITH SOVIET AFFAIRS, EASTERN EUROPE AND WAS FORTUNATE ENOUGH TO BE NAMED AMBASSADOR TO BRAZIL IN THE CLINTON ADMINISTRATION IN 1994. I SERVED FOR FOUR YEARS THERE BECAUSE WE HAD A SUCCESSION OF REPLACEMENTS FOR ME WHO DROPPED OUT OR -- BRIAN ATWOOD HAD BEEN DIRECTOR OF THE AGENCY FOR INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT, WAS VERY WELL-QUALIFIED TO BE AMBASSADOR TO BRAZIL AND WAS HELD UP ESSENTIALLY BY JESSE HELMS AT THE TIME BECAUSE HE HAD BEEN AGAINST BRINGING USAID INTO THE STATE DEPARTMENT. REMEMBER USAI WAS, THE AGENCY FOR ARMS CONTROL AND DISARMAMENT. I HAD A LONG HISTORY WITH BRAZIL AND RETAINED AN INTEREST WHEN I WAS ASSISTANT SECRETARY FOR INTERNATIONAL NARCOTICS BECAUSE BRAZIL BECAME A TRANSIT COUNTRY FOR DRUGS COMING OUT OF COLOMBIA, IN THAT AREA OF THE ANDES. YOU REMEMBER THAT VERY WELL BECAUSE YOU WERE THERE. MY SENSE, I WAS FORTUNATE TO BE THERE AT A TIME WHEN THINGS CHANGED FOR THE POSITIVE IN BRAZIL. WHEN I GOT TO BRAZIL IN JUNE RIGHT BEFORE 4 JULY, JUNE 1994, INFLATION WAS RUNNING AT 40% A MONTH. IF YOU WERE PAID BY A SALARY YOU HAD TO SPEND IT RIGHT AWAY. IF YOU DIDN'T SPEND IT AT THE END OF THE MONTH, THE MONEY WAS 40%. I REMEMBER CLEARLY THE STORY WHERE WE WERE TRYING, WE WERE GOING TO BUY THINGS, IN THE LOCAL MARKET, I WENT OVER, WE HAD A LITTLE BANK, SMALL BANKING FACILITY ON EMBASSY GROUNDS AND GAVE ME A SACK OF MONEY. I NEEDED A COUPLE THOUSAND DOLLARS. IT WAS LITERALLY A SACK OF MONEY. AS I WAS WALKING ACROSS THE LOT I WAS THINKING TO MYSELF AS I WALK ACROSS THIS LOT THIS MONEY IS GETTING TO BE WORTHLESS. I CALLED MY WIFE AND SAID I AM SENDING OUT A SACK OF MONEY, WE HAVE PEOPLE WHO WORKED IN THE EMBASSY WHO DID THE FOURTH OF JULY PARTY. HAVE THEM BUY EVERYTHING RIGHT AWAY TODAY BECAUSE IT STEADILY GOES DOWN. PRESIDENT CARDOZA WHO HAD BEEN FINANCE MINISTER UNDER THAT GOVERNMENT WAS ELECTED AND STOPPED EVEN BEFORE WITH HIS PLAN, STOPPED INFLATION IN ITS TRACKS. THE MIDDLE CLASS BEGAN TO GROW, INFLATION WAS ESSENTIALLY KEPT GOING DOWN WHICH IS THE BIGGEST THING IN BRAZIL FOR THE WORKERS COULDN'T PLAY THE OVERNIGHT BANK RATES, TO PLAY THE MONEY MARKET. IT WAS A PERIOD WHEN THINGS TOOK OFF. IF YOU LOOK AT THAT PERIOD OF TIME, IT WASN'T BECAUSE OF ME BUT THE BRAZILIAN GOVERNMENT. IT IS TOM'S FAULT. WHEN I LEFT, THINGS WERE REALLY MOVING. I REMEMBER OUR RESIDENCE WITHOUT A LITTLE FURTHER OUT OF TOWN AND THERE WERE EVEN MONKEYS IN THE TREES. A FEW MONTHS INTO THE PLAN ALL OF A SUDDEN THE HIGHWAY THAT WENT ACROSS OUR PROPERTY WAS JAMMED WITH CARS BECAUSE MIDDLE-CLASS PEOPLE THAT LIVED IN THE SUBURBS OF OLD TOWNS WHERE THE WORKERS BEGAN TO BUILD BRASÍLIA WERE BUYING CARS, GOT JAMMED UP, MONKEYS WENT AWAY, THEY DON'T LIKE FUMES, THEY DON'T LIKE NOISE. THAT WAS NEGATIVE. THE POSITIVE WAS YOU GOT THE MIDDLE-CLASS PARTICIPATING IN THE ECONOMY AND CARDOZA WAS WILDLY POPULAR. CERTAIN THINGS HE COULDN'T GET THROUGH CONGRESS BUT THAT HAPPENS WITH EVERY -- HE WAS ALSO ONE OF THE FIRST THINKERS AND MOVERS BEHIND THE THIRD WAVE WHICH CLINTON, TONY BLAIR -- BASICALLY A THIRD WAVE BETWEEN NAKED CAPITALISM AND SOCIALISM. KIND OF WHAT WE ARE DISCUSSING TODAY NOT VERY EFFECTIVELY, DEMOCRATIC SOCIALISM TODAY IN TERMS OF WHERE DOES THE COUNTRY LIE AT ANY TIME IN TERMS OF LEVELING THE PLAYING FIELD SO PEOPLE CAN COMPETE IN THIS SORT OF THING. THEY WERE TALKING ABOUT THIS 25 YEARS AGO. WEISER DIPLOMACY CENTER THERE WERE MORE SOCIAL PROGRAMS AT THIS TIME? THE SOCIAL PROGRAMS WERE PARTICULARLY FAMILIA WHICH WAS LULA'S PLAN FOR POOR FAMILIES. IT DID COME IN UNTIL LULA WAS ELECTED SO -- MOSTLY PEOPLE ROSE BECAUSE THE ECONOMY, RISING SEA CELLS -- RISES ALL BOATS. YOU CONCEDE IN PLACES LIKE SAN PABLO, RIO, THE BIG CITIES, EVEN SMALLER CITIES THAT COME IN. THE AGRO BUSINESS WAS HUGE IN BRAZIL COMPETING WITH THE UNITED STATES. SO THAT WAS A PERIOD WHEN I HAD HOPED FOR BRAZIL. I THOUGHT IT WOULD GO WELL BUT REMEMBER AT THE END OF THE CARDOZA PERIOD, WHAT CROPS UP? THE BIGGEST PROBLEM BRAZIL HAS, CORRUPTION. IT WASN'T PART OF IT. AT THE END OF THE CARDOZA PERIOD HE SERVED EIGHT YEARS. LOOKING AT IT NOW THERE WERE MANY SCANDALS. THESE THINGS BEGAN, WHERE GOVERNMENT OFFICIALS TOOK ADVANTAGE OF THEIR POSITION, THAT IS A BIG ISSUE. TOM KNOWS THIS AS WELL. A BIG ISSUE WITH BRAZIL IS CORRUPTION. DO PEOPLE HAVE TRUST IN THE GOVERNMENT WHEN THEY SEE MONEY IS BEING SKIMMED OFF AND FEELS ARE MADE? IT USED TO BE LATIN AMERICA THE PUBLIC RESPONSE TO A LOT OF ALLEGATIONS OF CORRUPTION BY OFFICIALS WAS WHY DIDN'T I GET MY PIECE? NOW THINGS HAVE CHANGED DRAMATICALLY. WHAT HAPPENED IN THIS PERIOD? YOU WERE THERE DURING WHAT WOULD CONSTITUTE THE HEYDAY OF LULA. WHAT HAPPENED? YOU HAD THE FAMILIA, PEOPLE LIFTED OUT OF POVERTY, SOME GREAT SOCIAL ENGINEERING GOING ON AND THE ECONOMY IS BORING, AND WHAT MEL WAS TALKING ABOUT, BUT WHAT HAPPENED? TELL US WHO LULA IS AND CAN YOU HELP US UNDERSTAND WHAT HAPPENED IN THE PERSPECTIVE OF THE PEOPLE OF THE COUNTRY? WHAT IS DIFFERENT FOR THE AVERAGE JOE? 'S ENVIRONMENT YET? WHAT IS CHANGING THEIR ATTITUDES AND WHAT IS CAUSING IT? A POLITICAL LEADER, A TRADE UNIONIST AND POLITICAL LEADER, WAS EVENTUALLY ELECTED PRESIDENT IN THE AFTERMATH, IS ABLE TO TAKE ADVANTAGE OF ECONOMIC STABILITY THAT WAS CREATED, WAS ABLE TO BUILD IN A SOCIAL OUTREACH PROGRAM, THE POOREST PEOPLE IN BRAZIL. IT MEANS THE FAMILY BASKET, IN ORDER TO BUY WHAT WAS NECESSARY AND IT IS UNDER INNOVATIVE PROGRAM, MONEY IS PAID NOT TO HEAD -- HEADS OF HOUSEHOLD BUT 2 WOMEN. THE ASSUMPTION IS THEY WILL SPEND THE MONEY RESPONSIBLY AND MEN WILL NOT. WHEN YOU ASK WHY THERE ARE NO STRONG WOMEN IT IS BECAUSE THEY ARE JUST TOO SENSIBLE RATHER THAN STRONG MEN. WHAT IS IMPORTANT HERE IS AS THE LULA ADMINISTRATION BEGINS TO ADDRESS EXTREME POVERTY IN BRAZIL, A MIDDLE-CLASS IS BUILDING AND AT ONE POINT IT REACHES 100 MILLION PEOPLE WHICH IS HALF OF BRAZIL'S POPULATION AND THIS HAS A HUGE IMPACT ON BRAZIL, A COUNTRY WHICH HISTORICALLY WAS DEFINED BY INEQUALITY, THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE WEALTHY AND THE POOR, NOW HAS A CENTER OF THE MIDDLE CLASS, STILL HAS GREAT ANY QUALITY BUT THE MIDDLE-CLASS CREATE STABILITY AND PREDICTABILITY AND CREATES A CONSUMER MARKET THAT DID NOT EXIST PREVIOUSLY AND THIS HELPS DRIVE THE ECONOMY. WHAT IS STRIKING ABOUT THE MIDDLE-CLASS IS THEY BELIEVE THEY ACHIEVED THEIR ECONOMIC WELL-BEING THROUGH THEIR OWN HARD WORK AND NOT NECESSARILY THROUGH GOVERNMENT PROGRAMS. THEY BECOME DEMANDING OF A GOVERNMENT AS OPPOSED TO ADORNED WITH THE GOVERNMENT AND THIS IS WHERE THE ISSUES OF HIGH CRIME RATES, CORRUPTION AND ECONOMIC SLOWDOWN HAVE A HUGE POLITICAL IMPACT BECAUSE THEY CREATE AND GENERATE A GROUP OF NOW POLITICALLY ACTIVE BRAZILIANS, A MIDDLE-CLASS WHO HAVE NO POLITICAL VOICE, NO POLITICAL PARTY OR POLITICAL CANDIDATE TO REPRESENT HIM AND THE RESULT IS A FOCUS BY THE MIDDLE-CLASS ON WHAT THEY CONSIDER TO BE THE INABILITY OF GOVERNMENT TO ADDRESS THE PROBLEMS MOST IMPORTANT TO THEM AND A SIGNIFICANT FOCUS ON CORRUPTION AND THIS LEADS TO THE INVESTIGATIONS IN THE AFTERMATH OF A SIGNIFICANT SCANDAL, THE CAR WASH SCANDAL THAT LEADS TO THE TAKEDOWN OF THE GOVERNMENT AND THE COLLAPSE OF BRAZIL'S POLITICAL CLASS. WHEN YOU LOOK AT BRAZIL, AND LULA BRINGS THESE PEOPLE THROUGH HIS PROGRAMS, THE MIDDLE-CLASS IS STRENGTHENED WHICH IS WHAT WE HAVE ALL TRIED TO DO AS DIPLOMATS, DO WHAT WE COULD TO STRENGTHEN MIDDLE-CLASS. INSTEAD OF BEING SUBSERVIENT AND ETERNALLY THANKFUL TO A GOVERNMENT THAT DOES THAT, AS HAS HAPPENED IN VENEZUELA RIGHT NEXT DOOR, YOU HAVE A CORE GROUP WHICH IS OBVIOUSLY DWINDLING LATELY THAT STUCK WITH CHAVEZ AND Ambassador Romero: MADURO LIKE DECENT EDUCATION AND MEDICAL CARE. THEY NEVER HAD THIS. NOW THEY'VE GOT IT. THE RESULTS IS THEY ARE SO THANKFUL THEY PUT THEMSELVES SUBSERVIENT TO A GOVERNMENT THAT EVERYDAY BECOMES MORE CORRUPT. WHY DIDN'T THAT HAPPEN IN BRAZIL? DEMOCRACY HAS DEEP ROOTS IN BRAZIL AND BRAZIL'S CONSTITUTION IS A PROFOUND INSTRUMENT OF POLITICAL ORDERING. IT IS IMPORTANT TO UNDERSTAND PRESIDENT LULA IS VERY POPULAR IN BRAZIL. UNDER HOUSE ARREST. HE IS INCARCERATED BUT HE WAS PREVENTED FROM RUNNING IN THE LAST PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION BY DECISIONS BY THE COURTS BUT SOME BELIEVE IF HE HAD RUN HE WOULD HAVE WON. BUT INDEPENDENT OF THAT IT IS IMPORTANT TO UNDERSTAND SOMETHING ABOUT BRAZIL. BRAZIL HAS BECOME A COUNTRY OF THE FUTURE, CERTAINLY A COUNTRY OF THE PRESENT, A REMARKABLE PLACEMENT DURING MY TIME THERE I SAW COUNTRY WHICH HAD USED DEMOCRATIC PROCESSES IN ITS CONSTITUTION TO TRANSFORM BRAZIL AS A COUNTRY. WHEN I ARRIVED IN BRAZIL THE FIRST TIME, I SERVED 7 YEARS OF MY PROFESSIONAL CAREER IN BRAZIL. WHEN I ARRIVED FOR THE FIRST TIME IN 1989 I WAS -- BRAZIL WAS A DIFFERENT COUNTRY FROM WHEN I RETURNED IN 2010. WE HAD THE SAME BOUNDARIES, THE SAME LANGUAGE BUT IT HAD GONE THROUGH A SOCIAL TRANSFORMATION. SOME WAS BUILDING UP THE MIDDLE-CLASS AND SOME OF IT WAS ADDRESSING EXTREME POVERTY BUT A LOT WAS ABOUT BUILDING INFRASTRUCTURE. IN TERMS OF WHAT IT WAS ABLE TO DO IN BUILDING A COUNTRY THAT WAS ABLE TO EXPAND ACROSS THE ENTIRETY OF ITS NATIONAL TERRITORY IT HAD DONE REMARKABLE THINGS. A COUNTRY WHICH WAS EFFECTIVELY THE COUNTRY OF THE COAST, SWUNG INTO BECOMING COUNTRY OF THE AMAZON AND THE WEST AND EMERGED AS ONE OF THE LARGEST FOOD PRODUCERS AND FOOD EXPORTERS, THE HIGHEST AMOUNT OF SUSTAINABLE RENEWABLE ENERGY. IT WAS A COMFORTING REMARKABLE THINGS AND THESE THINGS ARE STILL IN PLACE. WHAT IS STRIKING ABOUT THE POLITICAL CRISIS THAT BRAZIL LIVED THROUGH, IMAGINE THIS IN THE UNITED STATES, THE PRESIDENT IS IMPEACHED, HIS PREDECESSOR IS ARRESTED AND CHARGED WITH CRIMES, HIS SUCCESSOR WOULD BE CHARGED WITH CRIMES. THE SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE IS REMOVED FROM OFFICE, SENATE MAJORITY LEADER IS ARRESTED AND IMPRISONED AND THE HEAD OF APPLE, BOEING AND FORD ARE ALL ARRESTED. THAT HAPPENED IN BRAZIL BUT BRAZILIANS CLUNG TO THEIR DEMOCRATIC PURPOSE AND THEY BELIEVED THEIR INSTITUTIONS COULD ACCOMPLISH, AND IN MANY WAYS THIS IS THE UNTOLD STORY OF BRAZIL. ESPECIALLY IN THE NATIONAL MEDIA PEOPLE WONDER, IS JAIR BOLSONARO A THREAT TO DEMOCRACY? INDEPENDENT OF HIS FUTURE, THIS REPRESENTS THE BRAZILIAN PEOPLE'S COMMITMENT TO DEMOCRACY AND INSISTENCE THEIR LEADERS BE ACCOUNTABLE TO VOTERS AND ULTIMATELY RESPOND TO WHAT THE BRAZILIAN PEOPLE WANT TO. I REMEMBER AN INCIDENT OF CORRUPTION BEFORE PRESIDENT CLINTON CAME TO BRAZIL, REMEMBER THE COMMERCIAL MANUAL, THE BUSINESSMAN, HOW CUSTOMS WORK, HOW DO YOU DO BUSINESS IN BRAZIL? THERE WAS A SENTENCE IN THERE THAT, PAGE 130, THE PRESS PICKED UP ON AND THE SENTENCE WAS CORRUPTION IS ENDEMIC IN BRAZIL. SO IT BECAME A BIG THING. I GOT CALLS, I MADE A MISTAKE BECAUSE IT WAS AN HONEST STATEMENT. WHAT I SHOULD HAVE DONE WAS DISAVOW IT RIGHT AWAY EVEN THOUGH IT WAS TRUE BUT SOMETIMES HONESTY IS NOT THE BEST POLICY AND IT DIDN'T WORK VERY WELL AND WE HAD TO SAY IT WAS A PROBLEM BUT WE WILL CHANGE THE WORDING. WE ARE TALKING 1998. THIS WAS 1995. THIS WAS A PROBLEM WITH BRAZIL ALONG WITH INFLATION AND GOVERNMENT BUREAUCRACY, THAT WAS A PROBLEM FOR A LONG TIME AND THERE HAD BEEN VARIOUS ATTEMPTS TO DEAL WITH THIS. BRAZIL IS A THRIVING DEMOCRACY. ONE THING WE DIDN'T MENTION IS BOLSONARO LOVE THE MILITARY AND HAS NOSTALGIA FOR THE MILITARY. GO OF TIME. THE MILITARY WAS RESPONSIBLE. I DON'T THINK THEY WANT TO GET BACK IN CONTROL ANYMORE. I AM SURE TOM FOUND THEM. I DON'T THINK THEY ARE ALONE. THE ARGENTINE MILITARY AND BOLIVIAN MILITARY, NONE OF THEM WANT TO RUN THIS THING BECAUSE IT HAS BECOME TOO COMPLICATED. ONE MORE COMMENT ON THIS. ONE OF THE BIG THINGS ABOUT FAMILIA WAS EDUCATION. AS PART OF PARTICIPATION, THE FAMILY HAD TO MAKE SURE THE KID HAD A GOOD ATTENDANCE RECORD IN SCHOOL AND HAD A HEALTH CHECK EVERY, I'VE FORGOTTEN WHAT IT IS, EVERY FEW MONTHS. BIG ISSUE AMONG THE LOWER MIDDLE CLASSES WHERE SOMETIMES THEY DROP OUT OF SCHOOL AND HAVE TO WORK IN THE STREET. WE HAVE STREET CHILDREN ISSUES AND CHILDREN WORKING TO MAKE MONEY FOR THE FAMILY. THAT SOMEBODY HELPED -- EVENTUALLY WILL HELP BRAZIL GET TO THE POINT WHERE EDUCATION PARTICULARLY HIGHER EDUCATION IS OPEN TO EVERYBODY RATHER THAN JUST THE UPPER-CLASS AND THE ELITE IN BRAZIL. I AM WONDERING ABOUT THE AVERAGE BRAZILIAN, THE JOE BLOW OF BRAZIL. I GET A PRETTY GOOD PICTURE. WHO THEY RODRIGUEZ. JOSE IS MARRIED AND HAS A COUPLE KIDS. HERE IS WHAT I HAVE READ PRECEDING THE ELECTION OF BOLSONARO AND YOU CAN TELL ME HOW SIMILAR THIS IS WHAT YOU EXPERIENCED. STUDENTS IN THE NORTH WHERE IT IS WARMER, GOING TO SCHOOL AND SCHOOL IS MADE OF STICKS AND MUD, A LOT OF THE FAMILIES, THE REALLY POOR NEIGHBORHOODS HAD TO CANCEL SCHOOL FOR WEEKS AND MONTHS BECAUSE OF GUNFIRE, ILLITERACY WAS ON THE RISE AND THE SOLUTION FROM BOLSONARO'S POINT OF VIEW WAS GET RID OF THE GARBAGE IN THE EDUCATIONAL SYSTEM AND THERE'S A LOT -- PEOPLE DIDN'T LIKE THE CORRUPTION. THEY WANTED PRIVATIZATION AS A WAY OF SOLVING THAT. THE MURDER RATE WAS 6 TIMES THAT OF THE UNITED STATES AND THE LEADING CAUSE OF DEATH FOR TEENAGERS, THIS MUST ALGER FOR TIME OF LAW AND ORDER AND ECONOMIC DEPRESSION, PEOPLE HAVING DIFFICULTY OBTAINING FOOD, SHELTER, BASIC NEEDS, UNEMPLOYMENT, EXTREME POVERTY WAS A, HEALTHCARE, IS THIS CONSISTENT WITH WHAT YOU WERE SEEN BY THE TIME YOU LEFT BRAZIL, PRECEDING THE ELECTION OF BOLSONARO? ALL PROGRAMS AND TO A CERTAIN EXTENT -- WAS STARTING TO UNRAVEL? KNOW. FIRST OF ALL WHAT YOU DESCRIBED WAS NOT AN ABERRANT BRAZILIAN. THIS IS THE REALLY DESPERATE CLASSES. BRAZIL IS A MIDDLE-CLASS COUNTRY. IT DOES HAVE EXTREME POLES OF INEQUALITY AND YOU CAN FIND THAT POVERTY IN BRAZIL IN THE NORTHEAST AND THE LARGER CITIES. THIS IS NOT TO SAY THERE ARE NOT SIGNIFICANT ECONOMIC CHALLENGES, SECURITY CHALLENGES AND POLITICAL GRIPES BUT BRAZIL IS A VERY DIFFERENT COUNTRY FROM WHAT YOU DESCRIBE. THE MOST DRAMATIC RECESSION RECORDED IN HISTORY. WHAT YOU WOULD THAT HAVE HAPPENED? WHEN HE WAS IMPEACHED AND IN THE AFTERMATH. IT IS ONLY NOW COMING OUT. IT IS ONLY NOW AT A POINT WHERE THERE IS A POSITIVE GROWTH RATES. IS REBUILDING ITS ECONOMY. ONE OF THE LARGER CHALLENGES IS EVEN AS THIS ECONOMY GREW, AT THE BEGINNING OF PRESIDENT YOUSSEF'S TERM, BECAME THE SIXTH LARGEST ECONOMY IN THE WORLD AND WELL-POSITIONED TO BECOME THE FIFTH-LARGEST, IT HAD NOT SEEN A CORRESPONDING RISE IN PRODUCTIVITY AND COMPETITIVENESS. THE BRAZILIAN ECONOMY WAS LARGELY INWARD LOOKING, FOCUSED ON CONSUMERS AND ITS TRADE IS LARGELY OUTBACK, RESISTANT TO OPEN NEEDS MARKETS BECAUSE OF LACK OF PRODUCTIVITY AND LACK OF COMPETITIVENESS IN KEY AREAS WE SHOULD HAD REAL INDUSTRY, IN THE BUILDING OF LITIGATION AIRCRAFT. IT IS NOW AT A POINT WHERE IT HAS POSITIVE GROWTH AGAIN, ATTEMPTING TO TAKE SIGNIFICANT STRUCTURAL FORMS IN ITS ECONOMY. AND ONE OF JAIR BOLSONARO'S MOST IMPORTANT CHALLENGES IS GENERATING ECONOMIC GROWTH, TO RECUPERATE AND CONTINUE THE KIND OF ECONOMIC AND SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT THAT HAD BEGUN UNDER PREVIOUS PRESIDENTS. ONE OF THE REAL PROBLEMS, HOW IT IS STRUCTURED, HOW A COUNTRY THAT HAS, IN THE COUNTS, 25, 26 PARTIES AND THE ABILITY TO CHANGE PARTIES OVERNIGHT IS EASY SO WHAT HAPPENS? AND THE COALITION STARTS FALLING APART, THAT IS PART OF THE CORRUPTION AS WELL. NEPOTISM COMES INTO IT. AND TO BE PART OF THE COALITION, THERE HAVE BEEN VARIOUS ATTEMPTS TO BRING SINGLE MEMBER DISTRICTS IN TO THE SYSTEM BECAUSE THEY VOTE BY PARTY LISTS WHICH INCREASES THE NUMBER OF PARTIES OR USE THE GERMAN SYSTEM WHERE YOU HAVE A MIXED SYSTEM OF SINGLE-MEMBER LISTS, THEY ARE TIED TO THE PERSON WHO IS ELECTED. IF YOU GO TO BRAZIL NOW AND SAY WHO IS YOUR REPRESENTATIVE, THEY CAN'T TELL YOU. THEY CAN TELL YOU ALL THE PEOPLE WHO WERE ELECTED, THREE SENATORS, THERE'S NO REAL RESPONSIBILITY. IT HAS BEEN TRIED. I DON'T KNOW WHETHER BOLSONARO WILL TRY TO GO FOR THAT. AND THAT SYSTEM HAS CHANGED IN SOME WAY, I DON'T HAVE IS OPTIMISTIC A VIEWPOINT OF BRAZIL MAKING IT INTO EVEN HIGHER THAN SOMETIMES IN THE PAST BECAUSE IT BREEDS CORRUPTION, IT BREEDS NEPOTISM, IT BREEDS ALL THE THINGS THAT MAKES GOVERNMENTS UNRESPONSIVE TO PEOPLE'S NEEDS. IT IS HARD TO ENVISAGE THIS WOULD CHANGE DURING BOLSONARO'S CAREER. THAT'S NOT HIS AGENDA AT ALL, BUT ONE COULD HOPE. I AGREE WITH TOM SHANNON ON WHAT HAS HAPPENED RECENTLY TO MAKE ME MORE OPTIMISTIC WHICH IS A BUNCH OF YOUNG PROSECUTORS AND YOUNGER JUDGES TO HAVE GONE AFTER CORRUPTION IN A WAY THAT HAS NOT ONLY HAD A MARK IN BRAZIL BUT LATIN AMERICA, YOU THINK OF THE BIG BRAZILIAN COMPANY, THEIR TENTACLES HAVE REACHED ALL OVER LATIN AMERICA. WE ALL HAVE KNOWN IF YOU WERE TO LET AMERICA AND ARE PROMOTING US BUSINESS INTERESTS OVERSEAS, YOU KNOW FOR A FACT THAT IT HAS BEEN THERE BEFORE YOU AND PAID LOTS OF PEOPLE OFF. YOU CAN'T PUT YOUR FINGER ON IT BUT YOU KNOW WHAT IS HAPPENING. THERE IS A LOT MORE JUSTICE OUT THERE AND YOU CAN SAY TO PRESIDENTS AND MINISTERS WHO ARE HAVING BIDS ON PUBLIC WORKS THAT OUR PEOPLE KEEP YOU OUT OF TROUBLE. OUR PEOPLE HAVE TO ABIDE BY SENATE RULES THAT OTHER COUNTRIES DON'T. THIS ALL SOUNDS GREAT. WE HAVE A LOT OF THE SAME, A LOT OF THE REALLY GOOD THINGS IN TERMS OF THE GUARANTEED INCOME. WHAT HAPPENS IS BOLSONARO IS ELECTED. WHY? THAT'S WHAT I DON'T UNDERSTAND. LET'S TALK ABOUT THAT. WHY IS JAIR BOLSONARO ELECTED? WHAT DOES JOSE LIKE ABOUT JAIR BOLSONARO? I NEVER RAN INTO BOLSONARO. DID YOU? WAS HE PROMINENT? I DID RUN INTO HIM BUT HE SPENT 27 YEARS IN THE BRAZILIAN LEGISLATURE AND WAS CONSIDERED A CHARACTER OF SORTS. HE WAS NOT A POLITICAL FIGURE OF GREAT IMPORT WHICH IS WHY HE HAS DONE SO WELL. IN THE AFTERMATH OF THE CORRUPTION SCANDALS AND THE MIDDLE CLASS RAGE OVER CORRUPTION, THE LINKAGE BETWEEN BRAZIL'S POLITICAL CLASS AND THE BRAZILIAN PEOPLE, THE LACK OF TRUST AND CONFIDENCE WAS DRAMATIC. IN SOME WAYS IT WAS A POLITICAL JONESTOWN FROM BRAZIL. THE WHOLE SCANS ALL -- THIS OPENS, THIS OPENS A SPACE FOR NONTRADITIONAL POLITICIANS, ESPECIALLY SOMEONE LIKE JAIR BOLSONARO WHO WAS TALKING ABOUT LAW AND ORDER, FIGHTING CORRUPTION AND TAKING AWAY THE IDEA THAT WHAT HE CONSIDERED AN IDEOLOGICAL BASIS LEFT HIS TENDENCIES IN BRAZILIAN POLITICS AND HE WAS ABLE TO EMERGE AS A CLEAR ALTERNATIVE TO TRADITIONAL POLITICAL LEADERSHIP AND ALLOWED HIM TO WIN THE ELECTION. WHAT YOU ARE SAYING IS IT WASN'T SO MUCH ECONOMIC AS IT WAS POLITICAL. LET'S WIPE THE SLATE CLEAN. DRAIN THE SWAMP SO TO SPEAK. I THINK THAT IS ABSOLUTELY RIGHT. WAS VERY SOCIAL AND CULTURAL PART? THAT'S WHAT I WOULD LIKE TO UNDERSTAND BETTER. I HAVEN'T BEEN THERE A WHILE. I TOOK A GROUP OF PEOPLE TO BRAZIL FOR A FEW DAYS IN ONE OF OUR PROGRAMS AND TALKS WITH REGULAR BRAZILIANS, SOME OF THE NGOs. THE BRAZILIAN PEOPLE FELL AT SOME POINT AND WHEN THIS GETS EXPOSED EVERYBODY THOUGHT ABOUT IT. THE MAYOR OF SAN PAOLO, THEY SAY HE ROBS BUT EVERYBODY KNEW IT. ALL HIS MONEY WAS STASHED IN SWISS BANKS. I HAD HIM OFF THE PAPERS. I DON'T KNOW IF HE WAS PART OF THE PANAMA PAPERS SITUATION BUT IN FACT IT BECAME CLEAR, IT BECAME PUBLIC HE HAD BEEN STEALING THIS MONEY. A VERY CHARMING RASCAL MANY TIMES AND HE RAN SOME POWER, HE WAS A MAYOR DALEY OF SAN PAOLO, SO I THINK WE BOTH AGREE THE BRAZILIAN PEOPLE, BECAUSE THE STUFF WAS EXPOSED, THEY WERE SET UP OF THE CLASS, A GUY LIKE THAT MIGHT BE SAYING SIMILAR THINGS. SOCIAL SCIENTISTS HAVE TRIED TO FIGURE OUT WHAT GIVES RISE IN AN ELECTORATE TO STRONG MEN TAKING ADVANTAGE OF THE DEMOCRATIC PROCESS TO GET ELECTED AND TRYING WHAT THEY CAN DO TO AT THIS RATE THE SAME PROCESS BUT GOT THEM ELECTED. WHETHER YOU ARE TALKING ERDOGAN IN TURKEY OR VLADIMIR PUTIN, POLAND UNFORTUNATELY, MADURO, CHAVEZ, THE ECONOMIC EXPLANATION OF PEOPLE BEING LEFT BEHIND ECONOMICALLY IS COMPLETELY INSUFFICIENT TO REALLY DESCRIBE THE PHENOMENON. IT LOOKS LIKE IT IS MORE SOCIAL, MORE POLITICAL, MORE VALUE LADEN THEN IT GIVES RISE TO A SIMPLE, YOU ARE MARGINALIZED ECONOMICALLY SO YOU'RE DESPERATE AND GOING TO GO WITH WHOMEVER. IS THAT HAPPENING? BESIDES THE CORRUPTION THING, YOU HAVE BOLSONARO WHO IS PROMOTING GUN RIGHTS IN A COUNTRY THAT DOES NOT HAVE A GUN CULTURE. HE HAS SAID HORRIBLE THINGS ABOUT THE INDIGENOUS, PARASITES, HOMOSEXUALS, RATHER HAVE MY SON DIE IN AUTOMOBILE ACCIDENT. HE GOES OVER THE TOP, HE HAS A PRETTY GOOD APPROVAL RATING. IT MAY SOUND FAMILIAR TO SOME OF US HERE. WHAT IS THAT ALL ABOUT? THE SAME IN BRAZIL AS IT IS HERE. VOTERS ARE DISCERNING, VOTERS ARE SMART, VOTERS KNOW WHAT THEY WANT AND HOW TO FILTER OUT STUFF THEY DON'T CONSIDER IMPORTANT. FOR BRAZILIAN VOTERS WHAT WAS IMPORTANT WAS GETTING THE ECONOMY BACK ON TRACK, FIGHTING CRIME, FIGHTING CORRUPTION AND TO A CERTAIN EXTENT REORIENTING THE COUNTRY INTERNATIONALLY AND TRYING TO BUILD A BETTER RELATIONSHIP WITH THE UNITED STATES. BOLSONARO HAD ALL KINDS OF OTHER STUFF GOING ON AROUND HIM THE SAME WAY OUR PRESIDENT HAS ALL KINDS OF OTHER STUFF GOING ON AROUND HIM BUT FOR VOTERS WHO WANTED A CLEAR PATHWAY FORWARD HE OFFERED IT AND HE OFFERED SOMETHING THAT WAS DISTANTLY DIFFERENT FROM THE OPPOSING CANDIDATE WAS OFFERING AT THE TIME, AND IN THIS REGARD, THE BRAZILIANS SHOWED THEY WERE PREPARED TO PUT UP WITH THE OTHER RHETORIC IF PRESIDENT BOLSONARO WAS PREPARED TO FOCUS ON THE PRIMARY PURPOSE OF HIS CAMPAIGN AND WHAT YOU WILL FIND IS IT IS NOT CLEAR HE WILL BE A STRONG MAN. THE THING ABOUT BRAZIL, IT IS THE BIG BLOB. IT TAKES YOU IN AND HAVE REVIEW BECAUSE IT IS SUCH A LARGE COUNTRY, SO DIVERSE, SO DYNAMIC IN A FEDERAL STATE AND THE STATE ARE IMPORTANT, THE GOVERNORS ARE IMPORTANT AND HE STILL HAS A PARTY WHICH, WHILE IT HAS LEVERAGE IN THE LEGISLATURE AND HAS POPULARITY, THE BIGGEST LEGISLATIVE CHALLENGE WHICH IS PENSION REFORM IS PUSHING THROUGH THE ASSEMBLY AND IT IS BEING DONE SO HE GET SOME OF WHAT HE WANTS BUT NOT ALL OF WHAT HE WENTS. AS HE GETS DEEPER INTO HIS PRESIDENCY, THE BRAZILIANS WANT HIM TO FOCUS ON THE THREE OR FOUR CORE INTERESTS THAT MATTER TO THEM AND THE EXTENT TO WHICH HE BEGINS FOCUSING ELSEWHERE, THE SOCIAL RHETORIC OR ENVIRONMENTAL RHETORIC IS GOING TO LEAD TO GREATER TENSION WITHIN HIS GOVERNMENT AND GREATER CONCERNS AMONG BRAZILIANS AND DISSIPATE HIS ENERGY. MY HOPE IS HE CAN DISCIPLINE AND FOCUS BECAUSE BRAZIL DOESN'T HAVE ANY OPTIONS. FROM THE POINT OF VIEW OF THE UNITED STATES THIS GUY HAS TO BE SUCCESSFUL. IF HE IS NOT SUCCESSFUL WE WILL HAVE A BRAZIL WHICH WILL BE A TOUGHER PLACE OVER THE NEXT BUNCH OF YEARS AND NOT BE AS HELPFUL TO US AS WE TRIED TO BUILD A NEW RELATIONSHIP WITH HIM. Ambassador Romero: LET'S TURN TO THE TITLE, US -- "US/BRAZIL BROMANCE: WHAT'S IN STORE FOR US?". I DON'T KNOW IF ANY OF YOU CAUGHT THE MEETING BETWEEN DONALD TRUMP AND PRESIDENT BOLSONARO. THEY SEEM TO BE KINDRED SPIRITS IN MANY WAYS. THERE SMARMY SMILES ARE DIFFERENT. THEY DON'T SMILE THE SAME WAY. THEY ARE DIABOLICAL PERHAPS BUT DIFFERENTLY. AS A SIDE NOTE. A GREAT MEETING AND THE THREE OF US NEXT DIPLOMATS WILL ALL TELL YOU THAT WORKING WITH THE BRAZILIAN FOREIGN MINISTRY WAS NEVER EASY. TOO MANY CASES I FOUND THAT BRAZILIAN DIPLOMATS VIEWED ANY GAINS IN THE UNITED STATES AS A NET LOSS FOR THEM, A 0-SUM GAME. BUT NOW BOLSONARO IS CHANGING THAT -- TO COOPERATE ON VENEZUELA AT THE UN ON STRATEGIC THINGS, HE IS OPENING UP THE BRAZILIAN SPACE CENTER FOR US COMMERCIAL LAUNCHES. THE GROUND SEEMS TO BE OPEN FOR MORE COOPERATION AND YOU DON'T SEE THE ANTI-US AND ITS ASCENDANCY THAT YOU SEE IN THE BRAZILIAN FOREIGN MINISTRY ALL THE TIME. DO WE SAY THAT IS ENOUGH? THAT'S GOOD FOR US? BRAZILIAN DIPLOMATS ARE AS WELL-TRAINED AS ANY DIPLOMATIC CORPS I EVER DEALT WITH IN MY CAREER. AND THE MOST HIGHLY PAID BY THE WAY. QUITE WELL-PAID AND THE 25 YEARS FROM WHEN I WAS FIRST IN BRAZIL AND WHEN I WAS AMBASSADOR TO BRAZIL SOME OF THE NAMES WITH THE SAME BECAUSE THE SONS OF THE ORIGINAL FOREIGN SERVICE OFFICERS WERE COMING IN. A LOT OF IT, THE RUSSIANS HAVE A NICE EXPRESSION, SO WHEN CARDOZA CAME IN. AND THE BEARDED ONES, IN THE FOREIGN MINISTRY IT CHANGED CONSIDERABLY. OUR ABILITY TO TALK WITH THEM IN A REASONABLE WAY TO TRY TO GET COOPERATION WITH THE BRAZILIANS AT THE UN, THE WTO, WE ALWAYS HAD PROBLEMS BUT IT CHANGED CONSIDERABLY. IT DEPENDS ON HOW THE FOREIGN MINISTRY IS STRUCTURED AND HOW HE AND HIS FOREIGN MINISTER WANT THE FOREIGN MINISTRY TO OPERATE. THEY CAN'T OPERATE ON THEIR OWN IN A SORT OF NATIONALISTIC OR ANTI-AMERICAN WAY. IT HAS TO COME FROM THE PRESIDENT AND FOREIGN MINISTER. I THINK PROBABLY WE WILL HAVE LOTS OF OPPORTUNITY. I TALKED TO SOME BRAZILIAN JOURNALISTS IN BRAZIL IS NOT A COUNTRY THE AMERICAN PRESIDENT WAKES UP AND FIX ABOUT FIRST THING IN THE MORNING. UNLESS THERE'S A CRISIS IN THE BRAZIL IT'S NOT AT THE TOP OF THE PRIORITY LIST. WE WILL SEE. THE RELATIONSHIP IS GOING TO BE BETTER BUT I'M NOT SURE HOW FAR OR HOW IMPORTANT IT WILL BE IN TERMS OF WORLD AFFAIRS. THIS GUY WHO IS FOREIGN MINISTER. ERNEST ARAUJO O WAS PLUCKED OUT OF THE MID-RANKS AND ELEVATED TO THE CONCIERGE OF THE FOREIGN MINISTER. IS GOING TO BE ABLE TO GET IN LINE WITH BOLSONARO AND BECOME MORE PROACTIVE AND POSITIVE AS RELATES TO THE UNITED STATES? WE ARE GOING TO FIND OUT. ERNESTO WAS THE NUMBER 2 FELLOW AT THE BRAZILIAN EMBASSY IN WASHINGTON FOR QUITE SOME TIME. HE IS A GOOD DIPLOMAT BUT HE WAS HEAD OF NORTH AMERICAN AFFAIRS WHEN HE WAS ELEVATED TO BE FOREIGN MINISTER AND THAT IS UNUSUAL IN BRAZIL'S FOREIGN MINISTRY STRUCTURE BUT HE CAN TAKE CREDIT FOR SUCCESSFUL VISIT BY PRESIDENT BOLSONARO TO WASHINGTON. THE FACT OF THE MATTER IS IT WAS SUCCESSFUL BUSINESS OR BOTH SIDES. BRAZIL GOT A FAIR BIT OUT OF IT. SOME OF THE IMPORTANCE SYMBOLICALLY SUCH AS SUPPORT FOR BRAZIL AT ADMISSION TO THE O OBC ED WHICH IS TYPICAL OF DEVELOPED COUNTRIES, TO BRING BRAZIL INTO THAT ENVIRONMENT WAS ALMOST AS BIG AS BRAZIL ENTERING BRICKS. BECAUSE OF ITS MAJOR NON-NATO ALLY STATUS WHICH GAVE BRAZIL THE FRONT OF THE LINE WITH OUR NATO ALLIES WHEN IT COMES TO PURCHASING MILITARY EQUIPMENT AND CERTAIN KINDS OF COOPERATION AND INTELLIGENCE SHARING, AND MOST IMPORTANTLY THE TECHNICAL SAFEGUARDS, DONE BY BRAZIL IN THE UNITED STATES TO ALLOW THE SHARING OF CERTAIN KINDS OF SENSITIVE TECHNOLOGY AND INFORMATION RELATED TO SPACE LAUNCH AND THIS WILL ALLOW US COMPANIES AMONG OTHERS TO USE THEIR BRAZIL SPACE LAUNCH FACILITY TO LAUNCH SATELLITES AND THIS IS A BIG DEAL BECAUSE IT IS AN EDITORIAL LAUNCH SITE, MUCH BETTER LUNCH SITE THAN CAPE CANAVERAL. IT IS CHEAPER FOR AMERICAN COMPANIES BUT WILL OPEN A SPACE FOR THE UNITED STATES AND BRAZIL TO COOPERATE ON SPACE TECHNOLOGIES WHICH ARE INTERCONTINENTAL BALLISTIC MISSILE TECHNOLOGIES AND THIS IS SOMETHING OUR NONPROLIFERATION PEOPLE WORK JEALOUSLY TO GUARD. THE FACT THIS ADMINISTRATION WAS ABLE TO OPEN THAT DOOR TO BRAZILIANS WAS A PRETTY REMARKABLE STEP. IN THIS MOMENT WE HAD A GOOD START IN TERMS OF PERSONAL RELATIONSHIPS BETWEEN THE TWO PRESIDENTS. THE VISIT ITSELF ACCOMPLISHED SOME IMPORTANT FIRST STEPS IN BUILDING THE RELATIONSHIP. THE TRICK IS TO GET OUR BUREAUCRACIES TO WORK TOGETHER ON THEM AND THAT IS WHERE THE CHALLENGE WILL BE. THAT IS WHERE WE MIGHT ENCOUNTER RESISTANCE AND THAT IS WHERE PEOPLE LIKE THE FOREIGN MINISTER ARE INVOLVED. THERE WAS ONE NOT VERY WIDELY KNOWN THINGS THAT HAPPENED THAT IS QUITE INTERESTING. BOLSONARO EXPLORING THE POSSIBILITY OF A CUSTOMS UNION, YOU'RE NOT SUPPOSED TO DO BILATERAL TRADE DEALS. I LEARNED THAT THE HARD WAY WITH CHILE. IS TRYING TO CHANGE THAT BECAUSE HE WANTS TO DO A DEAL WITH THE UNITED STATES, PRESUMABLY. WE HAD THE FREE-TRADE AREA OF THE AMERICAS IF YOU WILL RECALL WHICH WAS A CLINTON VISION OF THE FREE-TRADE AREA THROUGHOUT ALL THE AMERICAS FROM CANADA TO CHILE. WE'VE DONE A LOT BILATERALLY OVER THE YEARS BUT BACK THEN WAS SUPPOSED TO BE ONE HUGE TRADE ZONE WHICH WOULD BE THE BIGGEST TRADE AGREEMENT IN THE WORLD AND BRAZIL DID EVERYTHING POSSIBLE TO STOP IT. THEY DIDN'T WANT IT TO HAPPEN BECAUSE THE 0-SUM GAME. OF THE UNITED STATES IS LEADING THIS WE MIGHT HAVE SOME INTEREST BUT THEIR GAIN IS OUR LOSS. IT IS A REFLECTION OF THE TIME. THE UNITED STATES WOULD DOMINATE THE ECONOMIC SITUATION. THE ECONOMY IS SO DOMINATING FOR BRAZIL IN TERMS OF PRODUCT. WHEN I WAS FIRST IN BRAZIL IT WAS COFFEE COFFEE COFFEE IN THE 60s. WHEN I WENT BACK THE SECOND TIME THIS HELD ON, AUTOMOBILE PARTS. ON THE SHORT RANGE AIRCRAFT, MIGHT HAVE BEEN BUILT BY EMPIRE. THAT TOOK A BIG JUMP AND SOYBEANS, AGRIBUSINESS. THEY ARE DIVERSIFIED. THEY HAD COMPETITORS IN A CERTAIN WAY AND OTHER AREAS WHERE WE CAN COOPERATE IN BRAZIL. JAYCOB MEGNA OF OPENING THE DOOR TO THAT. YOU DON'T SEE BOLSONARO THREATENING DEMOCRATIC INSTITUTIONS IN BRAZIL OR SUCCEEDING? BRAZIL'S DEMOCRATIC INSTITUTIONS CAN TAKE CARE OF THEMSELVES AND THE BRAZILIAN PEOPLE ARE COMMITTED TO THOSE INSTITUTIONS WHICH DOESN'T MEAN BOLSONARO MIGHT NOT MAKE HEADWAY IN SOME AREAS WE FIND UNCOMFORTABLE. WE HAVE A STRONG SET UP FOR THE RELATIONSHIP. WE HAVE TO WORK ON MAKING THAT REAL. IN THE PROCESS, WHAT THE PRESIDENT SAYS WILL AFFECT THE TONE OF THE RELATIONSHIP. IF HE CONTINUES TO ATTACK THE LGBT QUEUE POPULATION, THE ECONOMY OF INDIGENOUS PEOPLE AND PROTECTION OF INDIGENOUS PEOPLE, IF HE THREATENS THE WELL-BEING OF THE AMAZON AND DIVERSE CITY THIS WILL GENERATE A RESPONSE IN THE UNITED STATES THAT WILL MAKE THE RELATIONSHIP HARDER AND THAT WILL NOT HELP HIM. BEGIN TO CHALLENGE THE SUPPORT SOME PEOPLE ARE PREPARED TO GIVE INTERNALLY. MY HOPE IS -- I'M CONFIDENT ABOUT THE DEMOCRATIC INSTITUTIONS. DO YOU WANT TO DO QUESTIONS? ANY QUESTIONS? THANKS. I APPRECIATE YOUR COMMENTS, THE QUESTIONS ABOUT BRAZIL'S FOREIGN-POLICY, THE RELATIONSHIP WITH THE UNITED STATES, IN THIS COUNTRY, IN THE US, TRUMP'S BREAD OF POPULIST NATIONALISM HAS A CONNECTION TO A JACKSONIAN FOREIGN-POLICY THAT EMPHASIZES MILITARY POWER AND RETREAT FROM ENGAGEMENT WITH INTERNATIONAL INSTITUTIONS. DO YOU EXPECT TO SEE SOME OTHER MANIFESTATIONS IN BRAZIL'S FOREIGN-POLICY, WITH YOU AND LINKED BODIES? TALKING ABOUT MILITARY INTERVENTION IN VENEZUELA, BRAZIL WOULD BE A NATURAL, I DON'T THINK IT WILL HAPPEN AND THERE WON'T BE PUSHED BACK FROM MILITARY GETTING INVOLVED IN THAT WAY. IT IS TOO EARLY TO SAY WHAT KIND OF FOREIGN-POLICY BOLSONARO WILL HAVE. IT WILL BE VERY ANXIOUS TO BE A PARTNER WITH THE UNITED STATES. HE LIKES TRUMP AND THE FACT THAT TRUMP IS SORT OF PRESSING DEMOCRACY TO GET MORE POWER AS WE MENTIONED, A NUMBER OF OTHER DEMOCRATICALLY ELECTED LEADERS AROUND THE WORLD HAVE BECOME MORE AUTOCRATIC. THAT IS A NATURAL TENDENCY BUT AS TOM SAID HE WILL BE STYMIED BY THE BRAZILIAN SYSTEM OF DEMOCRACY. PRESS IS FREE IN BRAZIL, IT IS IRRESPONSIBLY FREE. IN THE WHITE HOUSE MEETING, BECAUSE BOLSONARO STARTED BY TALKING ABOUT FAKE NEWS IN BRAZIL. THAT RING DONALD TRUMP'S CHIMES RIGHT AWAY. TWO PEAS IN A POD. I WANTED TO SAY SOMETHING. LET ME SAY I HAVE A DIFFERENT RELATIONSHIP TO BRAZIL THAN THE ONE YOU HAVE ALL EXPRESSED BECAUSE -- I REMEMBER AMERICAN STUDIES, I DO MOST OF MY RESEARCH IN MEXICO, VENEZUELA, IT IS NOT BRAZIL BUT I HAVE THE RELATIONSHIP THAT HAS TO DO WITH BRAZIL. WHEN I WAS IN GRADUATE SCHOOL WE HAD A LOT OF BRAZILIANS AT THE TIME AND MY FIRST JOB WAS IN ST. LOUIS AND THERE WERE A NUMBER OF BRAZILIANS ON THE FACULTY. AND CHICAGO IT WAS MOSTLY GRADUATE SCHOOLS. THESE FOLKS WERE REFUGEES AND EXILES AND CHILDREN OF THE PEOPLE WHO HAD BEEN EXILED DURING THE MILITARY JUNTA. IT DOESN'T SURPRISE ME WHEN YOU SAY BRAZILIANS ARE COMMITTED TO DEMOCRACY BECAUSE ALL THE PEOPLE I KNEW HAD LIVED THROUGH THE HARDSHIPS OF THE YEAR, THEY WOULD NOT WANT ANY RETURN TO THAT. SO YOU PRESERVE DEMOCRACY IN BRAZIL WHETHER IT IS RIGHT OR LEFT. THEY PICKED UP A LOT OF VALUES WITH RESPECT TO DEMOCRATIC SOCIALISM, PEOPLE WHO HAD BEEN PART OF THE GUERRILLAS ESPOUSING ARMED CONFLICT DURING THE YEARS OF THE MILITARY AND WENT TO POLAND WITH MY GOOD FRIENDS WENT TO POLAND THINKING HE WOULD BECOME A COMMUNIST AND GO BACK TO BRAZIL BECOMING A REAL COMMUNIST AND HE SAID HE STARTED HAVING NIGHTMARES EVERY NIGHT WHEN HE LIVED IN A REAL COMMUNIST SOCIETY AND LITTLE BY LITTLE BECAME A SOCIALIST. I THINK BRAZIL IS A PLACE WHERE THERE ARE A LOT OF PEOPLE, ONE OF THOSE PEOPLE WAS MENDOZA, AND EXILE OF THOSE YEARS. I THINK THE POLITICAL SPECTRUM IN BRAZIL IN THAT VAST MIDDLE-CLASS YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT BECAUSE PEOPLE DID RETURN AND DID GO BACK AND ESTABLISH THEMSELVES. I THINK IT IS A RICH POLITICAL SPECTRUM. I HAVE MORE CONFIDENCE IN THEM POLITICALLY THAN I HAVE IN AMERICANS WHO HAVE NOT LIVED IN EXTREME SITUATIONS. IT IS INTERESTING JUST BEFORE I CAME HERE, I READ THAT BOLSONARO FIRED HIS MINISTER OF EDUCATION BECAUSE THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION HAD DICTATED THAT THEY WOULD REMOVE THE NEGATIVE REFERENCES THE 20 YEAR MILITARY DICTATORSHIP. APPARENTLY ALL THE SCHOOLCHILDREN IN BRAZIL WOULD READ THE NEGATIVE PARTS OF MILITARY DICTATORSHIP WHICH WAS OBVIOUS BUT HE DEMANDED ALL OF THAT BE REMOVED. THERE WAS SO MUCH PUSHBACK. THIS GOES BACK TO WHAT TOM WAS SAYING, THEY FIRMLY BELIEVE BRAZIL DEMOCRACY WILL SURVIVE, SO MUCH PUSHBACK BY TEACHERS AND PARENTS THAT THIS WAS BEING OVERLOOKED, OR IN SOME WAY HAVING A SHINY GLOSS PUT ON WHEN IT WASN'T THAT HE WAS FORCED TO RESIGN. AT THE END OF THE DAY YOU MAY BE RIGHT. THE EDUCATION SYSTEM FOR EXAMPLE. TELL ME IF THIS HAS CHANGED IN THAT PERIOD OF TIME. WE HAD WHEN PRESIDENT CLINTON CAME, A COUNTRY TO COUNTRY EDUCATION AGREEMENT. ONE OF THE THINGS OUR PEOPLE FOUND OUT WAS A STRANGE PART OF THE SYSTEM. IF YOU WERE A RICH PERSON YOU WOULD SEND YOUR KIDS TO A PRIVATE SCHOOL AND INEVITABLY THEY WOULD BE ELECTED TO A FREE PUBLIC UNIVERSITY WHICH ARE THE BEST ONES. THEY ARE FREE, NO TUITION. THE CATHOLIC UNIVERSITY HAS TUITION. IF YOU WERE POOR YOU SEND YOUR KID TO A NOT VERY GOOD PUBLIC SCHOOL AND COULDN'T GET INTO A FREE PUBLIC UNIVERSITY UNLESS YOU SACRIFICED AND SCROUNGED UP THE MONEY TO SEND THEM TO A UNIVERSITY WHERE YOU PAY TUITION. I REMEMBER THE EDUCATION MINISTER WAS INTENT ON TRYING TO CHANGE THE SYSTEM BECAUSE IT PERPETUATED THE RICH ELITE AND DIDN'T ALLOW MUCH MOVEMENT UPWARDS. I DON'T KNOW WHETHER THAT HAS CHANGED. I HAVEN'T SEEN THE NEWS THAT THE SYSTEM IS CHANGED BUT THAT IS AN IMPORTANT PART ALSO OF THIS RISING MIDDLE CLASS, YOU NEED EDUCATION TO BREAKOUT OF THE CLASS THEY APPEALED TO. TOM. YOU THINK HISTORY WILL BE KIND TO LULA? I DO. I THINK IT WILL BE KINDER TO CARDOZA BECAUSE OF WHAT HE DID BUT I BELIEVE IN SOME WAYS, LULA'S ACCOMPLISHMENTS WILL BE SEEN AS EXPANDING THE NUMBER OF PEOPLE WHO BENEFIT FROM THE BRAZILIAN ECONOMY, THE DRESSING, THE ISSUE OF EXTREME POVERTY IN THE NORTHEASTERN PART OF BRAZIL. AND TO A CERTAIN EXTENT HE INOCULATED BRAZIL AGAINST THE KIND OF POPULISM WE WERE SEEING IN VENEZUELA AND BOLIVIA AND ECUADOR AND ARGENTINA. AND CLUNG TO THE ECONOMIC POLICY AND APPROACHES THAT CARDOZA PUT IN PLACE AND CREATED ENOUGH CONTINUITY OF POLICY TO ALLOW THE ECONOMY TO CONTINUE TO GROW. THERE WILL BE ANY NUMBER OF CRITICISMS OF HIM AS ANY PRESIDENT HAS TO ENDURE, BUT I THINK HE WILL BE SEEN AS SOMEONE WHO WAS ABLE TO INSURE THAT BRAZIL DIDN'T FALL UNDER THE INFLUENCE OF THE KIND OF POPULISM WE SAW IN SOUTH AMERICA. WHEN I GOT TO BRAZIL IN THE MIDDLE OF THE ELECTION CAMPAIGN, WHAT IF WE MEET WITH SOME OF THE CANDIDATES NOT TO SAY ANYTHING POLITICAL BUT JUST TO GET TO KNOW THEM AND SEE WHAT THEY HAVE TO SAY? I MET WITH ALMOST EVERY ONE OF THE CANDIDATES EXCEPT FOR LULA. AFTER HE WAS DEFEATED, I SAID SEE IF LULA WILL COME TO THE RESIDENCE FOR LUNCH SOMETIME AND HE DID AND HE BROUGHT HIS PEOPLE WITH THEM AND HERE'S THIS ROUGH AND TUMBLE GUY WITH A FEW FINGERS MISSING FROM HAVING WORKED IN THE FACTORY. HE WAS A MACHINE OPERATOR. HE WAS A GOOD LISTENER. HE DIDN'T SAY TOO MUCH BUT HE DIDN'T HAVE TO BE IDEOLOGICAL AT THE TIME. THE GOVERNMENT WAS INTERESTED. MY IMPRESSION OF LULA WAS QUITE POSITIVE. THE IMPRESSION OF HIM BEFORE IN THE AMERICAN GOVERNMENT'S EYES, HE WAS GOING TO RENOUNCE THE DEBT, BE ANTI-AMERICAN AND DO ALL THESE BAD THINGS SO THERE WAS SOME FEAR, TOM WAS RIGHT, HE WAS SMART ENOUGH TO FIGURE OUT HE NEEDED TO TAKE WHAT WAS GOOD AND WHAT WAS LEFT TO HIM AND PRESERVE IT AND ADD ON TO IT WHICH HE DID IN THE SOCIAL SIDE, ONE OF THE FIRST THING HE DID WAS HIRE A FINANCE MINISTER WHO IS PRESIDENT OF THE BANK OF BOSTON IN BRAZIL. THEY WERE ABLE TO KEEP INFLATION DOWN, DIDN'T UNDERSTAND. HE WAS A DIAMOND IN THE ROUGH REALLY. AT THE END OF THE DAY THEY GET HIM ON BOGUS CHARGES. WHEN YOU THINK ABOUT THE SCOPE AND AMOUNT OF MONEY INVOLVED WITH THE CAR WASH SCANDAL, AND ALL OF THAT. THEY GOT HIM ON A COUPLE HUNDRED THOUSAND DOLLARS WORTH OF SERVICES AND CONSTRUCTION MONEY AND REFURBISHING A CONDO ON THE BEACH. PRESIDENT CLINTON WAS IMPEACHED BY CONGRESS BECAUSE HE HAD AN AFFAIR WITH A YOUNG PERSON. THAT WAS NOT A HUGE THEFT OF GOVERNMENT -- OF LEADERS DON'T THINK TO THEMSELVES WHAT IS MY LEGACY GOING TO BE, THIS HAPPENS. YOU SAY IT IS A SMALL THING BUT YOU DON'T EXPECT THAT OF THE PRESIDENT OF A COUNTRY. THAT IS WHAT HAPPENED TO LULA AND HE WAS BEING MADE AN EXAMPLE OF. THE PROSECUTORS, THE JUDGES THAT WERE DOING THIS WERE IN THE MOOD TO BRING THIS TO PUBLIC ATTENTION, CONVICT PEOPLE, PUT THEM IN JAIL FOR WHATEVER CRIMES THEY COMMIT AND THAT IS WHAT HAPPENED WITH LULA ALONG WITH SOME WHO HAD TAKEN MILLIONS OF DOLLARS. WE HAVE A COUPLE QUESTIONS. MY NAME IS CHRISTIAN. I'M A GRADUATE STUDENT, INCOMING PUBLIC POLICY STUDENT NEXT YEAR. SO MY QUESTION IS RELATED TO THE SCANDAL, I AM FROM ARGENTINA, IT WAS A BIG DEAL, PERU'S POLITICAL INSTITUTION, SEVERAL PRESIDENTS WERE INVOLVED AND THERE WAS A MONEY TRAIL INVOLVED IN THAT. GIVEN THE SITUATION THAT HAS HAPPENED OUT OF THAT AND A LOT OF PEOPLE ARE VERY FRUSTRATED WITH THE POLITICAL INSTITUTIONS IN SEVERAL SOUTH AMERICAN COUNTRIES SUCH AS PERU, SOME PLACES IN ARGENTINA AND ALL THE PLAYERS, DO YOU THINK HIS ELECTION COULD CAUSE A RIPPLE EFFECT IN TERMS OF THE RISING POPULISM THAT PEOPLE FEEL THEY WANT TO MAKE SURE CORRUPTION IS TACKLED FIRST AND FOREMOST, AND WOULD THAT DEPEND, HOW WOULD THAT BE -- YOU MENTIONED IT DEPENDS ON HOW THE INSTITUTION, STRONGLY DEMOCRATIC INSTITUTIONS STRONG ENOUGH? OUR COUNTRY STRONG ENOUGH TO WITHSTAND SOMETHING LIKE THIS? GUATEMALA DID. GUATEMALA CAN DO IT, PERU CAN DO IT, ARGENTINA CAN DO IT, CHILE CAN DO IT. CORRUPTION WILL BE A BIG DEAL ACROSS MANY ELECTIONS. TO A CERTAIN EXTENT, THERE ALREADY IS A REORIENTATION OF SORTS IN SOUTH AMERICA. BOLSONARO'S ELECTION IS NOT THE FIRST PART OF THAT. SOUTH AMERICA WHICH AT ONE POINT WAS COLORED PINK BECAUSE OF LEFT OF CENTER OR PROGRESSIVE GOVERNMENT IS NOT PINK ANYMORE. IF YOU LOOK AT BRAZIL, ARGENTINA, CHILE, PERU, COLOMBIA, YOU COULD ALMOST PUT ECUADOR IN THEIR. IF NOT CENTER-RIGHT GOVERNMENT TO LEASE GOVERNMENTS THAT HAVE MOVED AWAY FROM PREVIOUS PROGRESSIVE IDEOLOGIES AND APPROACHES. AS THEY HAVE DONE SO THEY CREATED I THINK A POSSIBILITY FOR SOUTH AMERICAN POLITICS TO MOVE BEYOND IDEOLOGICAL CLAIMS FOR VOTES AND INCREASINGLY VOTERS ARE GOING TO BE LOOK NOT AT IDEOLOGIES BUT ACCOMPLISHMENT AND TO THE EXTENT POLITICAL LEADERS AND POLITICAL PARTIES, THEY HAVE BEEN REELECTED AND ELECTED, AND IT IS NO LONGER A CASE OF PRESENTING YOURSELF AS LEFTIST CANDIDATE OR RIGHTIST CANDIDATE. THE IDEOLOGIES HAVE CORRODED AND PEOPLE LOST TRUST IN THEM AND THE LEADERSHIP TO DELIVER THE GOODS. DOESN'T RING A BELL AT HOME HERE? I AM THE ONLY BRAZILIAN HERE. THANK YOU FOR HAVING THIS EVENT. I'M HAPPY IT HAPPENED. I WANTED TO PLAY DEVILS ADVOCATE AND ASK YOU YOUR OPINION ON JUDGE MORROW AND THE CAR WASH. THE LECTURE THIS AFTERNOON, LIKE YOU ARE COMPLEMENTED. IT IS A GOOD THING THAT CAME OUT OF BRAZIL, THOSE WHO DON'T KNOW THE MAIN JUDGE, THE ARCHITECT BEHIND THE OPERATION IS THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE WHICH I THINK AT LEAST PUT HIS REPUTATION AT RISK. I WANT TO HEAR YOUR VIEWS. WOULD YOU LIKE TO TALK ABOUT SERGIO IN PARTICULAR? HE WAS A JUDGE WHO BEGAN -- BECAME THE FOCAL POINT FOR THE CAR WASH INVESTIGATION, DROVE INVESTIGATIONS AND ORDERED THE ARRESTS OF THE MANY PEOPLE WHO GOT CAUGHT UP IN THIS AND WORKING WITH FEDERAL POLICE DEVELOPED ALL THE CASES IN THE EARLY GOING. HE HAS BEEN NAMED MINISTER OF JUSTICE BY PRESIDENT BOLSONARO. OBVIOUSLY THERE ARE SOME WHO WERE VERY CONCERNED THAT HE HAD ESTABLISHED HIMSELF AS A BEACON OF POSITIVE ACTION AGAINST CORRUPTION, ALL THE CURRENT POWERS THAT BE AND THIS ULTIMATELY TAINTED IN SOME FASHION. THERE ARE CONCERNS PRESIDENT BOLSONARO, TO POLITICAL ENEMIES TO REDIRECT CORRUPTION INVESTIGATIONS. HE WAS VERY RESPECTED IN THE UNITED STATES AND ENGAGED WITH US COUNTERPARTS IN AN INTELLIGENT WAY. HE IS ONE OF THE FEW MEMBERS OF BOLSONARO'S CABINET WHO CANNOT BE FIRED AND THAT IS A POWERFUL PLACE TO BE. IT IS CALLED THE SUPREME COURT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA. VERY MUCH. WHAT THIS MEANS, THE BIGGEST CHALLENGE MOVING FROM A JUDGESHIP, A BIG DEAL AND IT REQUIRES A LOT OF HELP BUT IF HE HAS THE RIGHT HELP AROUND HIM HE HAS THE POTENTIAL OF BEING A HUGELY IMPORTANT JUSTICE MINISTER, ANTI-CORRUPTION EFFORTS AND TO BE VERY POSITIVE FOR BRAZIL GOING FORWARD. WE HAD TRADITIONALLY A NUMBER OF BRAZILIAN LAWYERS, SEVERAL OF THEM, THEY HAVE A HIGH OPINION. YOUNG PROSECUTORS AND YOUNG LAWYERS HAVE A BIT IN THEIR TEETH, THEY HAVE DRIVEN THIS AND WHEN YOU GET MOMENTUM IN AN AREA WHERE CORRUPTION IS BEING FOUND OUT THINGS SHOULD CHANGE. I WOULD THINK THAT WOULD BE A WARNING TO THOSE INSISTING THERE WOULD BE A TENDENCY TO SCAN OR WHATEVER IT IS, MAKE DEALS, PUT THEM ON WARNING THE GAME HAS CHANGED. IF YOU THINK OUR GOVERNMENT HAS CHANGED IN TERMS OF THE CABINET, PEOPLE LEAVING, PEOPLE COMING, LOOK AT BRAZIL. THEY -- WE WILL SEE WITH BOLSONARO BUT BEFORE MINISTERS LEAVE, MINISTERS COME AND GO IT IS LIKE A MERRY-GO-ROUND. IF THERE IS CONTINUITY, I AGREE WITH YOU, THERE COULD BE SIGNIFICANT CHANGES IN THE BRAZILIAN SYSTEM OF JUSTICE AND THE SOCIETY LOOKS AT THE GOVERNMENT. I GOT ONE LAST QUESTION AND THAT IS ARE BOTH OF YOU SAYING WHAT WE SAY, WHAT MANY PEOPLE SAY IN THE UNITED STATES WHO SUPPORT DONALD TRUMP BASICALLY SAY DON'T REALLY LOOK AT THE DIVISIVENESS AND RHETORIC, LOOK AT WHAT HE DOES AND WHAT HE STANDS FOR. IN BRAZIL, THE ELECTORATE IN BRAZIL PRETTY MUCH IF THEY HAVEN'T ALREADY CONCLUDED THE SAME THING, THAT BOLSONARO STANDS FOR ABRUPT CHANGE FROM THE OLD ORDER, FROM CORRUPTION ETC.. LET'S NOT WORRY ABOUT COMMENTS HE MAKES ABOUT THE LGBTQ COMMUNITY ORIENTED GENEROUS PEOPLE OR WHATEVER IT MIGHT BE. LET'S JUST GO WITH THE FACT THAT HE IS PART OF A CHANGE AND WE WILL CONTINUE WITH HIM AS OUR PRESIDENT BECAUSE OF THE FACT THAT HE RECOGNIZES THE PLACE IN HISTORY HIS RIGHT NOW WITH BRAZIL. THAT WAS HOW PEOPLE THOUGHT AS THEY WALKED INTO POLLING PLACES AND CAST THEIR BALLOTS. NOW THAT BOLSONARO IS PRESIDENT, THAT IS GOING TO INVOLVE. BRAZIL IS A BIG, DIVERSE SOCIETY BUT IS STILL FAIRLY CONSERVATIVE, FAIRLY TRADITIONAL BUT EVEN WITH THAT CONSERVATISM AND TRADITIONALISM, IT IS A LIVE AND LET LIVE COUNTRY. I JUST DON'T SEE BRAZIL BUYING IN TO THE SOCIAL RHETORIC OF THE PRESIDENT. THAT IS WHY I SAID EARLIER IF HE WANTS TO BE SUCCESSFUL HE HAS TO BE DISCIPLINED, ON ACHIEVING THE CORE ISSUES OR AREAS OF CONCERN THAT GOT HIM ELECTED AND TAKING ADVANTAGE OF THIS MOMENT IN TIME. OTHERWISE HE IS GOING TO FIND HIMSELF TRYING TO IDEOLOGY EYES BRAZIL IN A DIFFERENT WAY AND I DON'T THINK IT WILL BE UNDERSTOOD. LET ME TURN IT OVER, LET ME CLOSE BY SAYING AN INCREDIBLE BRAZILIAN ARTIST AND COMPOSER, AND ANY OF THESE SONGS YOU WOULD KNOW, HE FAMOUSLY SAID BRAZIL IS NOT FOR BEGINNERS AND WHAT HE MEANT BY THAT IS BRAZIL IS A COMPLICATED PLACE. FROM FOOTBALL TO CARNIVAL TO MUSIC. IT HAS A DEEP HISTORY TO IT. I ADDED SOMETHING ELSE WHICH IS BRAZIL IS NOT FOR SHORT TIMERS. IT IS NOT FOR HOT MONEY, NOT FOR PEOPLE WHO WANT POLITICAL ADVANTAGE. BRAZIL IS ABOUT RELATIONSHIPS. IT IS ABOUT RELATIONSHIPS THAT ENDURE ACROSS A LIFETIME FOR INDIVIDUALS AND COUNTRIES, AND WE FIND AS WE GET DEEPER INTO THIS PERIOD OF TIME BRAZILIANS WILL SEE ESPECIALLY IN THE RELATIONSHIP WITH THE UNITED STATES AND IMPORTANT POINT IS STABILITY IN THE WAY TO DRIVE THEIR OWN ECONOMY AND SOCIETY FORWARD SO I THINK WE'RE IN A VERY GOOD PLACE. THAT IS GOOD TO HEAR. POSITIVE NEWS FROM SOMEWHERE. LAST WORDS? BRAZIL GETS UNDER YOUR SKIN. IN MY DAY IN THE 60s AND 70s THERE WERE A BUNCH OF BRAZILIANS. MANY SERVED IN ANOTHER BIG COUNTRY, I WAS ASPIRING TO SERVE IN THE SOVIET UNION AS WELL. THE COUNTRY IS BIG, IT IS VIGOROUS. YOU'VE GOT TO LOVE THE BRAZILIANS. THEY VARY FROM NORTH TO SOUTH. I SERVED IN THE NORTH. IT WAS A KIND OF -- IT WAS A GENTEEL SOCIETY. PEOPLE WERE NICE, PEOPLE WERE KIND, PEOPLE WENT OUT OF THE WAY TO DO THINGS FOR YOU EVEN IN DIFFICULT CIRCUMSTANCES. IT GETS UNDER YOUR SKIN. I TRIED TO BE OPTIMISTIC. IT GETS UNDER MY SKIN WHEN I SEE CORRUPTION COMING. THAT IS NOT GOING TO HELP BRAZIL BECOME A GREAT COUNTRY. IT DIMINISHED IT SOMEWHAT IN THE EYES OF THE WORLD. BRAZIL IS ACTIVE, HAS A ROLE TO PLAY IN THE REGION AND INTERNATIONALLY. REMEMBER ONE THING, BRAZILIANS HAVE BEEN ACTIVE, THEY HAVE BEEN VERY ACTIVE IN THE INTERNATIONAL CIVIL SERVICE. MANY OF THEM SERVED AS REPRESENTATIVES OF THE SECRETARY-GENERAL. AND LOST THEIR LIVES. WE HAD AN EXAMPLE OF THAT KIND. IT IS A BIG, ACTIVE COUNTRY AND I THINK IT IS SPECIAL. I HOPE THINGS WORK WELL. I HOPE BOLSONARO CAST ASIDE THE THINGS HE SAID DURING THE CAMPAIGN AND TRIES TO ACCOMPLISH SOMETHING. I THINK THERE IS A LOT OF HUMAN CAPITAL AND NATURAL RESOURCES IN BRAZIL THAT WILL ALLOW IT TO BE A MORE OUTSTANDING COUNTRY AND LEADER IN INTERNATIONAL AFFAIRS. OKAY. WHERE ARE WE? FROM MUSIC. WAIT -- BY THE WAY, THE FIRST TRIP PRESIDENT CARDOZA MADE TO THE UNITED STATES AFTER HE WAS ELECTED, TONTO BEEN HAD DIED OF FAILURE OF HIS LIVER. NATIONAL ICON. PEOPLE ALL OVER BRAZIL. THE SAME HAPPENED WITH RACE CAR DRIVERS. THEY HAVE HUGE DEMONSTRATIONS, KILLED IN CRASHES AND REALLY ATTACHED WITH THESE ICONS. PELE AND OTHER FAMOUS FOOTBALL STARS, THE THING I AM STRUCK WITH IS A LOT OF DIPLOMATS WHO SERVE IN BRAZIL KEEP COMING BACK. THERE IS SOMETHING THAT KEEPS ATTRACTING THEM TO OUR SERVICE IN BRAZIL. THE OTHER PART OF IT IS I AM HOPING THAT THROUGH THIS PODCAST THAT WE ARE DOING NOT ONLY DO WE GET A BETTER APPRECIATION FOR WHAT DIPLOMATS DO, IN THESE KINDS OF EPISODES, WERE ABLE TO LOOK AT WHAT OTHER COUNTRIES GO THROUGH AND BORROW THE BEST THE WORKS AS OPPOSED TO THINKING WE HAVE ALL THE ANSWERS. I DON'T HAVE ALL THE ANSWERS AND THERE ARE THINGS THAT HAVE BEEN TRIED AND FAILED AND THINGS THE TRIED AND WORKED LIKE FAMILIA AND OTHER THINGS THAT MAYBE ARE THE ANSWER TO A LOT OF THE KIND OF DEBATES WE HAVE IN THE UNITED STATES THAT NEVER SEEM TO GET BEYOND THE CAPITALISM VERSUS SOCIALISM IN TERMS OF THE WAGE GAP IN THE UNITED STATES THAT SEEMS TO BE GROWING ON AN HOURLY BASIS. LET'S TAKE A LOOK AT BRAZIL. IT WAS AN INTERESTING EPISODE FOR ALL OF US. WHAT DO YOU HAVE FOR MUSIC? A GIRL FROM UP ANYMORE. I WILL SING IT WITH YOU. HOW DOES IT START? WITHOUT MUSIC? WE WILL DO A DUET. IS A LOADED? WHAT ARE WE DOING? OKAY. [LAUGHTER] THAT IS WHY WE HAVE YOU. [SPEAKING SPANISH] THAT IS SO BEAUTIFUL. THIS IS A FIRST, THIS IS A PODCAST EPISODE THAT HAS MEL LEVITSKY SINGING AMONG HIS OTHER TALENTS. IS THERE ANYTHING YOU WANT TO SING? MEL HAS SAID IT ALL. THANK YOU FOR COMING. THANK YOU ALL. [APPLAUSE]